Designing for Our Future 2019 Conference in Silicon Valley - Getting to Quality Content

Designing for Our Future 2019 Conference in Silicon Valley – Getting to Quality Content

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oh should I sit down here is this good hi I like this setup with the tables and the it's like more intimate okay so content content and kids content on YouTube kids there's you know not much controversy there yeah there's a lot to talk about in this and I figured that today we could sort of because we've got a mix of your you know both the researcher but with Google YouTube you're doing research and you're obviously the common sense so we could sort of give a lay of the land of what are the issues where's the research going what's like the tip of the spear on research what are you guys doing to address some of the problems and then kind of what you're hearing from parents about what they want so just to kick it off give me a sense of what the what's the research right now what are the next stories I should do on this what are you thinking about sure all right so I'm Jenny Radetzky I'm a developmental behavioral pediatrician and I practice at University of Michigan I'm an NH funded researcher I'm gonna say hi to my kids who are watching the live stream go to bed love you and we I am a mom of two awesome kids I so I've been really interested in content and the design of digital media because I feel like changing design is such a powerful way of changing human behaviors we've heard they're out today is that there's a lot of intentional design that meant to persuade or change human behavior sometimes for positive effects sometimes for ill effects sometimes in ways that young minds can't resist as we just heard so I really think it's a powerful conversation to be having especially with folks who work in technology when thinking about content it was a lot easier as a researcher to study content in the 70s and 80s when it was like we are studying Power Rangers versus Mister Rogers like you could really do analyses of the pro-social messaging of the diversity of the people you know portrayed of the amount of violence it is so much harder just the content right now number one because there's so much content it's cheap to make no one has to wait for it to be produced and put on network TV a lot of it is user generated content and it also has this new layer it's not just the programming that you're watching there's also the design layers on top of that like autoplay like algorithms like lots and lots of interactivity and data collection that just make it a lot more complicated to study so I'd say the way the way I frame it is number one there is the underlying content in terms of what are the messaging what's the implicit or informal learning a child might be doing from watching an unboxing video which might have commercial messaging in it or from watching a really funny or pro-social video that's showing a lot of empathy then there's also the kind of salient characteristics the bells the whistles the light effects the sound effects they're like clinking coins that go into your piggy bank when you're playing a game these researchers have known are really distracting elements that especially young brain so I study usually kids under five don't yet have the impulse inhibition to ignore they get so stuck on all those bells and whistles that they're not always getting the underlying meaning of the content or their I gaze is so fascinated on what's going on with all the bells and whistles that they're not really looking up to their parent to say like hey how does this how do i contextualize this new knowledge and the rest of my world really they're very focused on these kind of concrete aspects of design and then there are aspects on top of that that that aren't even part of the content so one of our studies that came out lux last fall was looking at the advertising that pops up kind of in-between levels or runs along the bottom of apps and or is hidden in little sparkling snowmen or bouncing gifts that as kids are playing apps you know they may be bringing up ads without even knowing it so that's a whole other layer that's now it's a natural part of the digital ecosystem i when I taste illegal right like you what they're doing they're advertising all kinds of like secret ways they're I don't there are no laws about in-app advertising for kids right now so when we did this study we really wanted to just describe what do kids encounter when they you know open up the kids app that's advertised for kids 5 and under and so we found lots of things we expected to see like banner ads some of them for adult appropriate content you know like tax preparation but a lot of them were also kind of built into the gamification of the game so that you could get more coins you could get better gameplay items if you watch ad after ad after ad and the app developer benefits with the more ads that are viewed during their during in during their free app so so these this is the complexity that we're dealing with right now in the research and I'd say there's really not a lot yet like you mentioned you two kids I I have not seen a single research study on YouTube kids either because it's it's really hard to capture either by tracking kids devices or just through parents memory before we go to you what would you want to study about YouTube kids what would you be worried about they even I mean the basics is like what our kids attracted to you know so my practice in developmental behavioral peds is I care about each individual kid how they're wired I play with them and I try and figure out what are their strengths or their challenges how does that impact Heather parented what therapies they need and so I'm really interested in the ways that young kids strengths and challenges influence their relationship with media so are they the sorts of kids that love just watching let's play videos where they just want to sit back and watch other kids play Minecraft for hours and hours or are they kids who are gonna go to YouTube kids and be like I just heard about the aurora borealis I want to look that up and then I'm gonna go talk to my mom about it I want to have a dance party with my with my sister so that's that's unknown and that's just like the very beginning of what I'd want to study yeah sure I mean just in preparing for this I looked up the you know New York Times Plus YouTube kids right and it's Manan doozy of a couple years it's been like advertisers boycott YouTube after pedophiles swarm comments on videos of children YouTube is improperly collecting children's data consumer groups say YouTube kids criticized for content introduces new parental controls it's it's been a doozy of a couple years what um how are you approaching this right now kind of whoa what what are you what are you thinking yeah I think well so let me just say I joined Google about six months ago so I kind of relatively new to a very large company which covered a lot of different issue areas from YouTube to like Maps yeah and so there's a really big and and very like varied and complex set of issue areas that come along with having such a kind of wide remit and obviously also whilst Irina is kids and families kids stretches across a big age range right and so issues thinking about you know social media used by teens is very different from like what content is appropriate for yeah you're owning it on just like those are content because there's so many different kind of range of issues and I think one thing that's been useful for me I think is coming from a research background you know I'm an anthropologist by training so I think we always have that sort of professional outsider kind of kind of lens on things and it's really thinking about you know how to translate the kind of research worlds both you know research from a variety of different disciplines but also research that I myself have done over the last kind of six or seven years which has really been close to parents experiences are you pushing for whatever like specifically and I think that's a great question so I think that one of the things you know thinking about YouTube kids for example and to Jenny's point is actually you know one of the things that I think is really interesting for me is the way that YouTube kids functions is a really different platform than for example like a Netflix or an Amazon or a broadcaster right like it's an information engine in a different way than a lot of other channels are so actually when we think about quality for example you know some of the videos that are really popular are things like trains leaving a station and like old channel of people who like have loved train videos and they're not like high quality and they don't necessarily have like great production values for example but they're really loved and they you know there's always train enthusiasts you know and like that's not on other kinds of channels right so how do we think about you know elevating and like hey for these wonderful and some of it's like pretty mainstream you know I mean there's a really big variety so I think you know when I think about the kind of set of challenges and and things that we think about is one to like honor and cater to that diversity at the same time as still you know like creating safeguards that make sure that we know our platform is like basically yeah safer and and as safe as possible and I'm honestly also to our earlier conversation today thinking about like what are the tools at our disposal on you know these big platforms Google is a big place you know it's a lot of content and how can we organize that content and surface it in a way that is like meeting the need of the person or the kid in the family at that time without you know content that we don't want to have on our platforms looking through so I think that's obviously something that you know you rightly identify as preoccupied a lot of our time and effort and now I think we're in a position as a big company that were able to move quite quickly when you know unfortunately we do identify content that shouldn't be there one of the things I think you know we are exploring and thinking a lot about is that what does this concept of quality mean and how can we apply some of the lessons that we've learned you know from machine learning from you know policy development how can we apply that to something that's maybe harder to identify like quality all this stuff you're seeing is like the same stuff that's been identified five years ago like okay we want to have better content filters we want to make this better we wanna make that better like it the problems are obvious the problems are laid out now is kind of the time that everyone's feeling like okay now it's like solution time now it's like we don't we know that bad content is slipping through to kids on YouTube so I think I mean I would say the the YouTube kids of today is a really different platform than it was five years ago so if you are sorry well I don't sure existed five years ago 2015 so four years ago and actually we've made a lot of strides in terms of the way the platform is set up you know for example last year we launched a fully whitelisted mode parent approved mode we worked with third parties to create kind of collections around different kinds of content you know the machine learning and algorithmic work that like sits behind the platform is so much more sort of sophisticated than elaborate and it was even at the time that we launched let alone like you know even in the last year so I think it's really important to think about like okay you know there's movement over time let's be it's really important to like identify kind of where like the kind of specificities are that we're seeing issues also one thing I think maybe we haven't done well enough on is like you know really kind of integrating a lot of the kind of digital citizenship or like awareness-raising resources into the platforms themselves so for example you know like because different things you know because different families have different kinds of values and different kinds of things that they want their kids to see you know we want to encourage parents to kind of play an active role in like curating and creating experiences parent approves mode I think those are really great and very well-received tool but there's certainly more we can do there as well are you surprised and you guys just jump like are you surprised how powerful this has become like YouTube kids has become in a lot of ways the TV the babysitter the it's become like a foundational tool for modern parents and in many homes and what do you make of that is that good is that bad has it become too relied upon or or you like no this is what we intend for it to do its educational or whatever I like what what do you make of its role now in 2019 families I mean I'm not sure it suits you kids specifically and that looks also really widely use so there's so I think maybe what you're identifying is digital media generally plays such an important role in family life and and this is something obviously you know that I reflected on it's for sorry well it became the safe haven yeah the safe haven it's marketed as a safe haven when it launched kids were already on YouTube we know that kids were that the preschool channels on YouTube were extremely popular intro YouTube kids parents feel like oh this is gonna be a safe walled garden experience for my kid yeah which in some ways it's aiming to be but I think what many parents would argue that it could do better YouTube kids also just by the nature of the way kids use digital media and the fact that we've put swiping and voice remotes into the hands of babes yeah it has a pretty short shelf life literally so it kids graduate pretty quickly on to the larger YouTube landscape so they may go to YouTube for little YouTube kids for a minute jump back over to YouTube proper and you know all bets are off you and you guys are doing sort of the most research in terms of figuring out how much time kids are actually spending on these things how what would you say it sort of the average American five-year-old well across media it's nine hours a day yeah that's across yeah and I think it's YouTube today but two years ago it could have been Netflix and in three years it could be something else I'm sure there will be like a an Instagram for juniors yeah any minute now so I I can't wait but I would imagine you know so I think it abscent flows depending on the technology a lot of what we're talking about today how effective right before this I ran into my friend Mark Burgin who's a reporter and he suggested I ask the question about the age limits on YouTube YouTube Terms of Service says that age 12 is when you're supposed to start using it and under not below that I texted me the language of it but 13 13 um what have followed are those I mean you're doing yeah is that so basically that some all parents are following that right no one no one under 13 is on YouTube kids well given that preschool channels are some of the most popular channels I think we know right then in there that obviously kids under 13 are using YouTube Michael Kors are I mean it's there's lots of lots of kids I mean keep participants in my studies that use YouTube main even though they're not supposed to I think because it has an appeal that it is it's what the grown-ups use it mean it may be that the parents don't know about YouTube kids they don't know that there's another kind of more curated or you know safe haven to watch they just know that YouTube is you know free easy to search you know gives you lots of new suggestions of what to do next I mean even on on YouTube main if you search for like baby shark videos or Nursery Rhyme videos they will have like little stamps to tell you how long like this is 72 minutes of like little video baby baby after baby video you know so it's like you know basically communicating to parents what's you know how much time they have and and you're right is that a lot of parents are using digital media as a way to keep kids occupied keep kids calm and safe and you know when we wrote the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines in 2016 we specifically didn't say don't use media as an occupier because lots of parents do that I mean we all do it and I think that that we didn't want to send a sense of judgment or you know unrealistic expectations what we did specifically say is try not to use media as a way to calm kids down yeah as a way to help them handle moments of distress as a weight and way to like handle moments of boredom or like just little blow ups that are occurring for other causes don't distract them from that cause help them solve the problem around that cause that'll help you as a parent kind of know what's going on emotionally with them and it helps them learn to problem-solve and hopefully manage that emotion in the future so I would say this this question of like is it good is it bad that it's kind of woven into our family fabric in this way I don't think we have an answer for that I think so much of that depends on what is viewed how much it's viewed together versus not and how much of it is displacing other opportunities like sleep that or like unstructured play where the child decides what they're doing next not the algorithm or a parent-child kind of play exchange that lets the child interact with an adult who understands them and who can make meaning of the word just by the way they talk and experience one another so right those are the opportunity costs from more time on digital media and we don't even know yet whether autoplay and using media that has Auto advanced or has other kind of persuasive design features leads to extended duration of viewing on a daily basis that actually hasn't even been studied it just know that it annoys parents no end yes keep laughing at the team that tantrum of like shut it off but the other one already started and by the way I would say this is not to demonize YouTube like there is incredible content talk about quality content on YouTube if I my kids were seeing the YouTube that I know is possible I would let them on all the time but that's not what they see and the related content is a challenge I think that it's like there's great Facebook does a lot of amazing great things for the world as well as dangerous things it's a in any of these massive enormous ly powerful platforms there's good and there's bad and there's incredible content available it blends like the platform's only respond when the bad is called out otherwise they kind of like sort of pretend it doesn't I think what we're kind of hovering around is the delivery mechanism of that content quality or otherwise yeah and it's an algorithm and is an algorithm the best way to feed content to our kids maybe would JB never turn the autoplay feature off for YouTube kids well one thing to say is first of all that's not true that we only find bad content when it's called out so for example like I think I would actually really encourage everyone to look at the YouTube transparency report which we now publish so there's you know so there's I think something like we took down in the first quarter of this year we took out eight hundred thousand pieces of content in relationship to child safety broadly so that's any kind of content that we consider to be endangering children so I'm actually increasingly that content is taken down before it even has ten views so that's actually something like you know I think we think we talk about algorithms is this sort of like abstract concept and actually obviously and this the conversations earlier today really like helps identify like algorithms are useful for different kinds of things in different kinds of moments and I think to Jill's point like there's a sort of this complex interplay and this is something that's so new to me because I'm new to industry between like machine learning and human review right and like any time we create algorithms we create them with some kind of like level of human questioning that's kind of gone into what are we looking for like how do we set the parameters of what's what the machine learning is is trying to discover and so and then there's this kind of really iterative process where a set of human reviewers like looks at the content of the algorithm is turning up they tweak it they change it and so that whole process is really like kind of constantly running behind the scenes of like so my question is would you guys ever consider turning off autoplay yeah I'm autoplay I think one thing that was really encouraging for example is when you know in the last couple years we made the autoplay toggle itself much more prominent on YouTube so it's like you know if you look at the mobile app if anybody has it you can see it's like right under the videos and actually that change has led that to be the most changed setting and all of YouTube's like around the third of YouTube users change that setting which just like think about how many users use YouTube and think like that's sort of a huge number because most people never change the settings that they use and then the other thing that we've had a lot of success with is these take a break reminders that we started so just recently we like kind of reached a milestone around that which is a billion take a break reminders serve now I think with all of the kind of digital well-being features that we have at YouTube and and there's a host of really I think exciting digital well-being features that are now like kind of standard in Android operating systems as well in addition to family link which is really has a host of timers and like ways that parents and children can together negotiate like what are the right rules of the road for their own family I think all of these features are things that we can think about as kind of like a journey around behavior change right and like I think one of the panelists earlier identified like okay we need to like think about changing our metrics changing our kind of like rules of like what is considered since success and I think a lot of the digital well-being features and a lot of the work and actually are some folks in this room have been really doing a lot of this work both on family link and on the Android Digital well-being features are really thinking I think really critically and working with the research community quite significantly to think about like okay how do we measure success when success is actually using our products less you know and like but there you know there must be some sort of data streams that you can get from smartphones that indicate well-being I mean we can we can profile so much else that if there are indicators like sleep or social contact or other things that researchers use to predict depression relapses or bipolar or like manic episodes like there are things that probably could be made into metrics to be like yeah this person is using in a more balanced way I know I know that's not a perfect solution and it's not something I as a researcher would use I'd want to interview that that participant and kind of understand you know their reflections upon it but I mean I think another thing I've been thinking of is your as you're talking and that goes back to what Tristan was saying earlier this morning is like when you're designing technology to kind of conform to the human needs rather than humans conforming to the technologies needs like when you when you're a child you're human needs involve your adults your secure relationships with adults around you and user interfaces are usually just generated or designed with one user in mind with a child usually so they even like YouTube Netflix you know plenty of other kid-friendly or not so kid-friendly user interfaces are expecting to just be interacting with a kid rather than really explicitly involving the parent and child in some of the decision-making together or prompting conversations between them and so I guess that's one major thing I would take away from this is that if we're going to be thinking of designing technology that conformed to children's real developmental needs it would mean designing for the dyad or the whole family as a unit because that's how children develop and that's what they develop the skills that actually really mad you know emotional social skills problem-solving not just ABCs and matching colors so when they do graduate to those next platforms they actually have the skills exactly right I really really agree with that and I think that's also partly like a productive having done family research the last you know seven years um and I think I mean I think family link is an example of like where we really like used that as a kind of an organizing principle from the ground up and I think that products which has you know it's links different accounts so parents okay supervised account for their child but there's also a lot of kind of outreach and support for parents that not only encourage is kind of what we in the research community call restrictive mediations but not just about setting limits although obviously there's a lot of functionality that does that but also around having conversations around thinking about like what are the rules of the road so I think there's there's obviously more we can do there I think another thing that I am really aware of from a time spending a lot of time talking with parents about this is the ways in which a lot of families do use technology as a way of like supporting humane intimate like wonderful ways of being together so whether it's like you use music and you dance around the kitchen or you like curl up on the couch together like you know I've interviewed parents who use you know leg lead like videos on YouTube kids and Portuguese because they're far from their family and Portugal or Brazil they want their kids to be able to learn the language their grandparents speaks and that's like one of the ways of doing that so I do think it's also important to think about what are the ways in which technology design content use can be supportive of that kind of intimacy and family life that I think so many finds really valuable as well your your the forefront of listening to parents and what they're wanting what are parents wanting and not again not to single out YouTube kids but what are parents wanting from these platforms to be better parents are on the front lines they're the ones that are dealing this on a day-to-day basis it's coming home they're the ones that are getting their kids asking to watch that movie download that up play that new video game and so I think at the I mean at the at the basic level a lot of the enhancements within the platforms need to be elevated so putting parental controls in a place that makes more sense where people can see them right at the top where they have more control in an ideal scenario there's more there's a stronger default setting so you are not getting on okay how to play right away that's something that you set in your in your device or in the in Netflix or YouTube but in the bigger scheme of things I think solutions and faster faster solutions to some of these I think there's a responsibility of industry tech Entertainment policy we're kind of sitting right in the middle of all of that and we're hearing directly from parents parents their schools parents directly from from the consumer side and we are really hearing the struggles that they're having specifically with digital media I will say I've been in common sense for 14 out of its 15 years when I first started everything was about violent video games and scary movies and now parents are like like give me a violent movie because I don't know what my kid's gonna find the related content it's real yeah I mean I think that a shoot-'em-up video game versus just a Google search box that empty Google search boxes yeah but at least you can watch it with them you can play along with them and like help you know demystify what's going on or talk through yeah it makes a meaning out of it I'm not encouraging playing violent video games but I'm saying that like you know just at the AAP we've been thinking about like how do we get how do we elevate all these good ideas that can encourage real human connection around technology and it's easy to say things like have a family movie night and like go play when you're when you're kids playing on a gaming console a lot easier when it's a big Green that you're sharing together compared to that you know they're related you know in our in our recent study that was just published in Pediatrics kids were all just like this is mine yeah watching a movie together is retro right so that's a lot harder to get that child's body unhooked from from being cocooned around the device that they find so satisfying so I think that um you know it's something about not only the design of the of the platforms that families are using but also elevating the good ideas and I mean that's why we partnered with Common Sense Media at the time that the guidelines were released because there was just a slew of good ideas on the website through the newsletters to try and get that outreach to families but I feel like there could be more either user interface design or you know I've talked with Alicia about like could it be what is what is prioritized what is recommended is the good stuff could there be a lot more PBS kids coming up in your recommended algorithms but I I worry as some of the conversations on Boise to me like it doesn't seem and nor does it not ears are gonna get upset when they're being deep prioritize yeah but so much of that content is like a like a 10 second clip of like a train moving like you're saying it's like low-quality we or it's like really weird stuff but kids love that kind of stuff I know but often times I have daughters but so many of my friends with boys I mean we ask anyone in this room it's like my kid loves to watch dump trucks they love a construction site it's very sound stereotypical but it happens yeah low quality that quality is so in the eye of the beholder so I mean I could point out much lower quality content on YouTube than a train leaving the station no true or on Netflix and I think another key thing that the developmental research suggests is that it's also how you transfer what the come from watching the content to then how they apply that knowledge in real life so if you're watching dumptruck video dump truck video and that's where you stay that is a lot less meaningful then dump truck video giving you a prompt to go try something at home that has to do with dumping in physics and whatever you know some sort of play activity so PBS kids already does this with Curious George writes at the end every episode they're like hey here's what you can do at home and it's this natural kind of nudge off of the screen to go that's how you're nobody content that someone has thought through and structured and well so I want to actually do a little bit of a plug for that what we call endemic content YouTube which is the content which is really creative like for YouTube and not you know like all the strange adults doing the dancing so let's just think about the kind of the real world interaction stuff so there's a whole genre of content on YouTube kids which is drawing videos like how to draw how to draw a flower or like my kids I have six year old twins they came to visit me for take your kids to work day and they saw this video called a channel called draw so cute where this woman draws these like amazing sort of like Japanese kind of cartoon characters and mr. breaks it down and stuff so Mike here's how to do an ear and here's there's like you know kind of cuddly cat and so my six-year-olds now like really like to draw these um you know draw so cute videos now some of the user research that we've done on YouTube has actually shown that like in some ways actually these like seeing other kids you don't have agency and like take part in something having like in some sense less production values actually makes that more accessible and more in some sense like inspiring of of also enjoy so I think like I not wishing to like not like also say that there's a range of content but I think it's important to really think about like okay if the goal is physical movement drawing families doing stuff together there may be like a new generation or some like sometimes PBS is not the best I mean as a few PDS may I think kick to questions you know who in the audience it has any questions oh we have a lot of questions this is good you right there yeah and one thing one comment I've noticed often I'll ask my 14 year old Oh what are you doing right now and she's turned noun into a verb she says I'm just youtubing I'll say that's not a verb right what are you actually watching what are you doing but then I'm wondering if YouTube or Google has will think about moving toward taking away the recommended video yeah I know you can turn off autoplay just as an educator often our educators or faculty at my school don't want to use YouTube because a bunch of stuff comes up on the side that's not appropriate for her I work with middle school-aged girls well so first of all I would say if you haven't already turned on restricted mode that's probably a good start especially in education context secondly I think obviously thinking about what what is surfaced in what's next how algorithms work is a really complex and like ongoing thing and absolutely we are kind of considering like what makes the best user experience what like we'll sort of meet people's expectations like there's a certain principle behind searching for something which is that you like want to get the content that you're searching for so obviously like you know historically our algorithms are really optimized for like you search for this thing like here's some more stuff what we are like there's a user experience you know actually one of the folks here who's been doing some really fascinating research on like how very little kids like search for information on how they gained what we could call search literacy over time and so they learned to like refine their searches and like put in different terms that like help them identify what they're searching and YouTube kids we have like voice search so you can search that way as well and it's actually also helps with literacy because it types out the words as you say them but I think to answer your question in a sort of vague but honest way yes absolutely we're thinking all the time about those recommendations work and I can't like give you a potted answer like this is now what that's going to look like but of course it's something we think deeply it would be also fascinating to kind of help kids understand why they got the results they got like to kind of demystify that algorithm a little bit in terms of helping them build digital literacy because I think you know in in medicine we have to be super transparent about every decision we're making and why we're ordering these tests and explaining my thinking it to my patients and my patients would think it was ridiculous where I'm just like here here's the orders by you know go do this next thing and so I feel like that could be part of some of the design changes is is be having tech companies take on more transparency when they're dealing with kids generally layout this is why you're getting this next thing you know if an algorithm is involved and if not I mean I think I've been having conversations with people about the importance of autonomy in early childhood and like having kids understand that they're responsible for their next section in their next action and whether that gets worn away a little bit when you are following a feed and so you know helping them understand cause think what do you want to do next a what stronger way to give that to kids than show instead of telling them right like you should be leading by example they should be looking for exactly what you're describing in the platforms that they're using and then looking for that in other platforms right and just like not seeing it right that look for that in a doctor right if you had a doctor who was just bossing you around she would not I'm venturing to I mean that that that seems to be the approach that at least we've had to take it common sense it's informing and educating a parent because they don't have the time to look at every YouTube video prior to their kid watching something or look at every movie etc so here we provide an evaluative overlay but it would be ideal honestly to be able to have that built in that concept into what kids are actually using now I think there's a balance here which is about created platforms that like or especially when we have you know young kids in mind that are like helping them kind of understand how the platform itself works and are like giving them some information about so like actually just thinking for example of how we treat ads on YouTube kids and you know we change the color of the barn that's at the bottom there's bumpers that code before and after the ad not you know there's only a certain percentage of the content of the overall time watch can be ads and so the idea is you know yes it is and you know the ads are all kind of contact space they don't require any personalization so I think that it's really a good example of like how to within the kind of constraints of it's a free platform and it is ad supported and I think that's you know important to kind of have some access that isn't you know gated by you know subscription costs which not everyone can afford at the same time it's thinking about like how through our policies we can try to like explain what's happening and like give visual cues that like okay this is now commercial content and and I think there's obviously much more we can think about and iterate and like work on in that area but I think that's – Jenni's point about like explaining to kids a little bit about what's going on and like helping them kind of understand I think that's like you know especially in the spaces that are really for for kids explicitly that there's a lot you know more we could do you read up here yeah with pediatricians like Jenny or with Tristan Harris tristin Harris's group specifically to address meant many of his points and try to change bring in people to change this design and so with Tristan specifically you know we recently went to his event in San Francisco and there's a small round table that we participated in so I think um not to sound funny but like you know I'm a researcher who's worked on kind of screen time and family media use for many years and I was recruited by Google to this role so I think actually I can't speak for other tech companies but at least at Google there's been a real effort in the last few years to kind of bring both kind of in-house expertise and like hiring folks from academia there's a couple other folks here who come either from the kids media worlds in the research world from places like common sense so I think and you know we have others who work on the trust and safety side who's come from you know literally like I work with somebody who was like a federal prosecutor who was like working on you know crimes against children so I think like there's a huge amount of effort to build in a lot of in-house expertise and also I think it's really important that we work with external experts and really hear you know their perspectives on an ongoing basis and so I've we've always kind of done that as a company but that's definitely something that I've there's a lot of emphasis on as my kind of insider outsider role and so we'll continue to do that yeah they hire researchers and bring them just bring them into the fold you in no way back yet in the first conversation thing Tristan mentioned an interesting metric by which we can determine sort of the health of the technology and I was wondering Alicia do your kids use YouTube kids and how often and on what devices and I think one of the things that actually I was really struck I'm Nellie read an article a couple months ago a year ago which ironically was like the most it was about Silicon Valley's being super calm Valley families being fearful around technology which was like ironically the most circulated parenting article in all of my like Bay Area parenting groups so um interestingly fear of Technology and all these parenting groups on safe spots but anyway and I think that one of the things I do a lot of talks for parents at schools and you know when you say what you do you get stopped at the school gates all the time and I know these guys I'm sure do as well and and one of the things that I think is really important that I say to other parents based on my own experience as a parent that you know really as a researcher is like having an open and curious and like inquisitive attitude towards your children's digital interests it's probably you're like very first stop and like I am understanding like the spectrum of different things that they could be interested in engaging with like there's things that my kids want to watch that I don't feel comfortable with and it's my job to set boundaries around that and and I have to like actually sometimes explain to my five-year-old like why I don't feel comfortable with them watching certain kinds of content on YouTube kids or elsewhere and that's actually you know it's hard to do that I'm really sympathetic to parents really struggling like that but that is still you know I think a lot of parents historically have been really focused on time and like watching the minutes on the clock and have maybe been less actually questioning like what are you doing how what do you like about it how are you like are you using it to connect are you able to disconnect when you need to like what can we do to help with that and I think that giving parents some of those like wider sets of questions and tools that don't just feel kind of punitive and don't just feel kind of limiting there's probably a really good start you guys sorry they do use you two kids yes I was I think I was mentioning draw so cute earlier is Mark Bergen still in the room Bergen do you want a question you're the reporter on this beat no pressure Bergen sorry let's show you one more question if you establish that you two kids is for children under 13 I'm just curious why you still have exhaustive amounts of videos clearly targeted for kids on the main site and I think this is actually back to my sort of earlier point about like what's parents rules in this so YouTube main is for thirteen plus and I think the expectation has always been that parents shouldn't have unsupervised children on YouTube main and that's really like will strongly encourage parents to understand it's a general audience site it's not made for kids YouTube kids is made for kids if you want your kids to have an unsupervised experience that's where they should be so I think we're out of time guys are we one more question good yeah yeah yeah this session was about quality of content I'm going to make a plug for quality of lack of content part of the reason that we have this problem is because parents have decided to use devices as the portable babysitter I've seen it in clinic for the last 1012 years since 2007 when the iPad was invented bottom line kids now do not know how to self-soothe because they've been basically opted out of childhood that they are now basically not experiencing the ability to interact with their environment because they've been given an artificial one and in the process we've actually taken something away from them so Piaget famous child psychologist in 20th century famously said play is the work of the child well I would are I would argue that he left peace out boredom is the opportunity of the child and we are not allowing our kids to be bored and in the process we've got a problem I would just respond to that by but with a little more specificity is that some kids are having trouble self-soothing not not all I mean I see the kids who are are struggling more with it and I think that they are there's there's also reasons like poverty and income inequality and trauma and lack of mental health services and there are huge systemic structural reasons that kids are really struggling socially and emotionally right now it's not just media and media is often used up in homes where there is a lot of stress I've interviewed parents who are in homeless shelters who say this is how I get quiet and when he yells I get triggered and I get aroused and I don't have anyone else to talk to so this is how we get quieter in a house so if you have that much of an emotional driver and I'm not saying that's the right way for that parent to handle their distress in that moment we need to find other ways instead of just saying you can't do it I also will say there's a surprising study that found that when kids use mobile devices in primary care visits with their pediatricians parents and pediatricians actually communicated better and pediatricians were more accurate in their developmental assessments it was the opposite of what they thought and so it was just a good reminder that we have to test our assumptions better we have to test them and it's not I'm not saying that we need to then promote use of mobile devices during primary care visits we can have toys we can have toys if you're not afraid of the germs that might collect on them which is like the other reason that no one is playing in primary care pediatric offices right now and they're all bringing their own safe little objects from home the other reason is that it is a scary opportunity you know kids know they're coming in for vaccines they act up there's plenty of other social and emotional reasons why kids are distressed when they come into the visit and I actually advocate this is a perfect teachable moment to talk about it oh hi you know how are they feeling right now are they you know what is that you know how do you find that act that you just gave to them what do you think they're feeling right now how are we gonna take that away you know we're gonna have to go to the exam I want to play with them a little bit I want to see their eyes so you know so we have to talk around it because otherwise a lot of families feel alienated if we just feel like you know do a hard stop and I know that from from my my developmental behavioral training is there's lots of toddlers out there that if you just do a hard stop and say no you can't do this they'll push back even harder you have to give them a reason you have to give them a replacement behavior so we actually have to do the same with parents and not you know and give them either other options and things to do self I know I mean think you're gonna substitute guys I think I mean I want to stay here for like ever and hang out and debate because this is what I'm obsessed with but I think there's a happy hour right now that's starting so we should go thank you so much to all our speakers and thank you to everyone for being here today to all of our speakers I do want to commend everyone for coming working through these problems working towards solutions it's not easy particularly those who work in industry those who really are coming under scrutiny and you know I think we feel like the only way to get there is to both look for policy opportunities and look for the innovative capacity and the smarts and lots of good intention inside of these companies to really make shifts and we're starting to see that so we really appreciate can't get anywhere without having these conversations and hopefully they can lead to real action so thank you so much for being here so yes I already see I see some wine through an open door out there so please join us the CMO from Firefox will be saying a couple remarks in a couple minutes but enjoy get to know one another a little bit better have some beer wine refreshments and check out the exhibits downstairs thank you so much for coming we appreciate it

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